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	<title>Comments on: Thecla, Tertullian, and controversies over women&#8217;s leadership (NT Apocrypha 18)</title>
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		<title>By: Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean &#187; Thecla, Tertullian, and controversies over women&#8217;s leadership (NT Apocrypha 18)</title>
		<link>http://www.philipharland.com/Blog/2005/10/24/thecla-tertullian-and-controversies-over-womens-leadership-nt-apocrypha-18/comment-page-1/#comment-8626</link>
		<dc:creator>Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean &#187; Thecla, Tertullian, and controversies over women&#8217;s leadership (NT Apocrypha 18)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Sep 2006 01:56:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] 24 Oct 2005 Thecla, Tertullian, and controversies over women&#8217;s leadership (NT Apocrypha 18) Posted by Phil Harland. Categories / Series: Christian Apocrypha and &quot;Gnosticism&quot; , Women andreligion , Paul of Tarsus , Acts (of Apostles) , Pseudonymity and canon&#160; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 24 Oct 2005 Thecla, Tertullian, and controversies over women&#8217;s leadership (NT Apocrypha 18) Posted by Phil Harland. Categories / Series: Christian Apocrypha and &#8220;Gnosticism&#8221; , Women andreligion , Paul of Tarsus , Acts (of Apostles) , Pseudonymity and canon&nbsp; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Harland</title>
		<link>http://www.philipharland.com/Blog/2005/10/24/thecla-tertullian-and-controversies-over-womens-leadership-nt-apocrypha-18/comment-page-1/#comment-47</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Harland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Dec 2005 19:43:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.philipharland.com/Blog/?p=30#comment-47</guid>
		<description>5 Comments

Angela said...

    It is evident in some early christian texts that some women played a significant leadership role in their communities and were influencial. I feel the need to ask though- how successful could Christianity have been if women continued to maintain these influential roles? If traditional Greco-roman society had a distinct private/public divide where women barely entered the public and were ideally constrained to the private, would a religion that promoted a more full female participation have been accepted by the general population in the first few centuries? I tend to think not.

    8:01 AM
Sacha M. said...

    Angela makes a good point concerning the success of the early Church. On an unrelated point, I would like to call attention to Chloe (1Cor 1:11) as one of the leaders of the Corinthian church; one that Paul clearly approves of. This is contained in one of Paul&#039;s authentic letters, as oppossed to the Pastorals.

    11:10 AM
Phil Harland
Phil Harland said...

    Angela makes a very good point, and there is considerable truth to the suggestion that women were (in theory and often in practice) restricted primarily to the private spaces. I do not have the sources in front of me right now, so forgive the lack of clear references to literature. Margaret MacDonald&#039;s book on perceptions of Christian women among &quot;pagan&quot; authors clearly shows that the position and presence of women within some Christian congregations was the target of &quot;pagan&quot; critique. Celsus (mid-second century, combatted in Origen), for instance, tries to undermine the legitimacy of Christianity by suggesting it was made up of a bunch of women and children, as well as the dregs of society. But he might have had the same things to say of other non-elite &quot;pagan&quot; associations, if he were asked about it.

    The public/private divide regarding gender expectations may not always coincide with the realities on the ground. There are clear signs that within &quot;pagan&quot; religious groups or associations (as attested by inscriptions rather than elite produced literature), women could be participants and sometimes even leaders in some groups (though not the majority). And, of course, there are many women benefactors of associations. So some Christian congregations are not all that different from some &quot;pagan&quot; associations on the roles of women in relation to the group.

    But if cases like Thecla (who rejects marriage and the family) are to be taken as reflective of trends in some Christian circles, then the critique of Christianity as a home- and society-wrecker would be a natural accusation, even if some other Christians were expressly trying to counter such perceptions (e.g. the Pastoral epistles). Greek and Roman authors alike saw the family as the basic unit of society, and celibacy could be perceived as a threat to the order of society as a whole. See Dennis MacDonald&#039;s _Legend and the Apostle_ on the Pastoral epistles and Acts of Paul and Thecla as alternate sides of this issue of how Greeks and ROmans perceived Christians. Phil

    4:09 PM
Laura said...

    Most of these female characters are also interesting to look at in terms of their relationship to males, and especially the male disciples.
    Example: Mary Magdalene and Peter.
    I wonder if certain people or perhaps certain groups of early christians had &#039;favourite&#039; disciples.

    I think Luke is the only canonical gospel which claims that Peter saw the resurrection first. Therefore establishing the primacy of Peter.
    Was this just Luke&#039;s personal opinion (or his source&#039;s opinion!) or was it a point of controversy amongst christian circles?

    I&#039;d like to think that the women were stirring things up back then...

    ;)

    10:17 AM
glaserildiko said...

    I really don&#039;t think that women took a backseat role in the development of Christianity. They just took a less visible role. If women were &#039;in charge&#039; of the private domain, they would have been influential in spreading Christianity in that area. And early Christian gatherings took place in private homes (the private), where it would make sense that women would play an active, even a leadership, role. (it would account for Paul&#039;s Posse in Rom.16)
    By the way, even though the resurrected Jesus appeared to Peter, Mary Magdalene and the other Marys got the news first. Makes you wonder...

    12:53 PM</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>5 Comments</p>
<p>Angela said&#8230;</p>
<p>    It is evident in some early christian texts that some women played a significant leadership role in their communities and were influencial. I feel the need to ask though- how successful could Christianity have been if women continued to maintain these influential roles? If traditional Greco-roman society had a distinct private/public divide where women barely entered the public and were ideally constrained to the private, would a religion that promoted a more full female participation have been accepted by the general population in the first few centuries? I tend to think not.</p>
<p>    8:01 AM<br />
Sacha M. said&#8230;</p>
<p>    Angela makes a good point concerning the success of the early Church. On an unrelated point, I would like to call attention to Chloe (1Cor 1:11) as one of the leaders of the Corinthian church; one that Paul clearly approves of. This is contained in one of Paul&#8217;s authentic letters, as oppossed to the Pastorals.</p>
<p>    11:10 AM<br />
Phil Harland<br />
Phil Harland said&#8230;</p>
<p>    Angela makes a very good point, and there is considerable truth to the suggestion that women were (in theory and often in practice) restricted primarily to the private spaces. I do not have the sources in front of me right now, so forgive the lack of clear references to literature. Margaret MacDonald&#8217;s book on perceptions of Christian women among &#8220;pagan&#8221; authors clearly shows that the position and presence of women within some Christian congregations was the target of &#8220;pagan&#8221; critique. Celsus (mid-second century, combatted in Origen), for instance, tries to undermine the legitimacy of Christianity by suggesting it was made up of a bunch of women and children, as well as the dregs of society. But he might have had the same things to say of other non-elite &#8220;pagan&#8221; associations, if he were asked about it.</p>
<p>    The public/private divide regarding gender expectations may not always coincide with the realities on the ground. There are clear signs that within &#8220;pagan&#8221; religious groups or associations (as attested by inscriptions rather than elite produced literature), women could be participants and sometimes even leaders in some groups (though not the majority). And, of course, there are many women benefactors of associations. So some Christian congregations are not all that different from some &#8220;pagan&#8221; associations on the roles of women in relation to the group.</p>
<p>    But if cases like Thecla (who rejects marriage and the family) are to be taken as reflective of trends in some Christian circles, then the critique of Christianity as a home- and society-wrecker would be a natural accusation, even if some other Christians were expressly trying to counter such perceptions (e.g. the Pastoral epistles). Greek and Roman authors alike saw the family as the basic unit of society, and celibacy could be perceived as a threat to the order of society as a whole. See Dennis MacDonald&#8217;s _Legend and the Apostle_ on the Pastoral epistles and Acts of Paul and Thecla as alternate sides of this issue of how Greeks and ROmans perceived Christians. Phil</p>
<p>    4:09 PM<br />
Laura said&#8230;</p>
<p>    Most of these female characters are also interesting to look at in terms of their relationship to males, and especially the male disciples.<br />
    Example: Mary Magdalene and Peter.<br />
    I wonder if certain people or perhaps certain groups of early christians had &#8216;favourite&#8217; disciples.</p>
<p>    I think Luke is the only canonical gospel which claims that Peter saw the resurrection first. Therefore establishing the primacy of Peter.<br />
    Was this just Luke&#8217;s personal opinion (or his source&#8217;s opinion!) or was it a point of controversy amongst christian circles?</p>
<p>    I&#8217;d like to think that the women were stirring things up back then&#8230;</p>
<p>    ;)</p>
<p>    10:17 AM<br />
glaserildiko said&#8230;</p>
<p>    I really don&#8217;t think that women took a backseat role in the development of Christianity. They just took a less visible role. If women were &#8216;in charge&#8217; of the private domain, they would have been influential in spreading Christianity in that area. And early Christian gatherings took place in private homes (the private), where it would make sense that women would play an active, even a leadership, role. (it would account for Paul&#8217;s Posse in Rom.16)<br />
    By the way, even though the resurrected Jesus appeared to Peter, Mary Magdalene and the other Marys got the news first. Makes you wonder&#8230;</p>
<p>    12:53 PM</p>
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