Comments on: What crime did Ignatius of Antioch commit and who laid the charges? http://www.philipharland.com/Blog/2007/09/13/what-crime-did-ignatius-of-antioch-commit-and-who-laid-the-charges/ Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean houses my podcast, websites, blog, and publications, providing an entryway into social and religious life among Greeks, Romans, Jews, Christians, and others in the Roman empire. Wed, 08 Feb 2012 17:14:39 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Phil Harland http://www.philipharland.com/Blog/2007/09/13/what-crime-did-ignatius-of-antioch-commit-and-who-laid-the-charges/comment-page-1/#comment-44947 Phil Harland Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:40:39 +0000 http://www.philipharland.com/Blog/2007/09/13/what-crime-did-ignatius-of-antioch-commit-and-who-laid-the-charges/#comment-44947 To think, Ignatius is still a controversial guy. Maybe I should make this blog "Ignatius in the Ancient Mediterranean". Phil H. To think, Ignatius is still a controversial guy. Maybe I should make this blog “Ignatius in the Ancient Mediterranean”. Phil H.

]]> By: Phil Snider http://www.philipharland.com/Blog/2007/09/13/what-crime-did-ignatius-of-antioch-commit-and-who-laid-the-charges/comment-page-1/#comment-44369 Phil Snider Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:20:08 +0000 http://www.philipharland.com/Blog/2007/09/13/what-crime-did-ignatius-of-antioch-commit-and-who-laid-the-charges/#comment-44369 I take all of your points about the limitations of Eusebius, but a betrayal of Ignatius would make rather a useful club to beat heretics with, so might have encouraged Eusebius to include, if he knew it. While heresy isn't his central concern, I could see him using it. It also doesn't explain why Ignatius himself doesn't mention it nor why a contemporary doesn't allude to it. All of this isn't proof, but just some interesting omissions in the record. Peace, Phil I take all of your points about the limitations of Eusebius, but a betrayal of Ignatius would make rather a useful club to beat heretics with, so might have encouraged Eusebius to include, if he knew it. While heresy isn’t his central concern, I could see him using it.

It also doesn’t explain why Ignatius himself doesn’t mention it nor why a contemporary doesn’t allude to it.

All of this isn’t proof, but just some interesting omissions in the record.

Peace,
Phil

]]> By: Phil H. http://www.philipharland.com/Blog/2007/09/13/what-crime-did-ignatius-of-antioch-commit-and-who-laid-the-charges/comment-page-1/#comment-44276 Phil H. Fri, 14 Sep 2007 00:44:18 +0000 http://www.philipharland.com/Blog/2007/09/13/what-crime-did-ignatius-of-antioch-commit-and-who-laid-the-charges/#comment-44276 Hello Stephen, Thanks for the comment (and I don't just say that because you agreed that my proposal was quite plausible;). I'm watching out to see what is going on at Duke. Phil Hello Stephen,

Thanks for the comment (and I don’t just say that because you agreed that my proposal was quite plausible;).

I’m watching out to see what is going on at Duke.

Phil

]]> By: Stephen C. Carlson http://www.philipharland.com/Blog/2007/09/13/what-crime-did-ignatius-of-antioch-commit-and-who-laid-the-charges/comment-page-1/#comment-44274 Stephen C. Carlson Fri, 14 Sep 2007 00:10:01 +0000 http://www.philipharland.com/Blog/2007/09/13/what-crime-did-ignatius-of-antioch-commit-and-who-laid-the-charges/#comment-44274 Phil H.: I think your scenario for Ignatius is very plausible. In fact, it puts Ignatius's emphasis on a monarchical episcopate into an interesting context. Phil S.: I doubt Eusebius knew any more about Ignatius than what we know now. Phil H.: I think your scenario for Ignatius is very plausible. In fact, it puts Ignatius’s emphasis on a monarchical episcopate into an interesting context.

Phil S.: I doubt Eusebius knew any more about Ignatius than what we know now.

]]> By: Doug Chaplin http://www.philipharland.com/Blog/2007/09/13/what-crime-did-ignatius-of-antioch-commit-and-who-laid-the-charges/comment-page-1/#comment-44244 Doug Chaplin Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:46:39 +0000 http://www.philipharland.com/Blog/2007/09/13/what-crime-did-ignatius-of-antioch-commit-and-who-laid-the-charges/#comment-44244 OTOH Ignatius does rather sem to crave his martyrdom, and I fint it just as likely he did something provocative off his own bat. But an interesting theory to consider, nonetheless. OTOH Ignatius does rather sem to crave his martyrdom, and I fint it just as likely he did something provocative off his own bat. But an interesting theory to consider, nonetheless.

]]> By: Phil H. http://www.philipharland.com/Blog/2007/09/13/what-crime-did-ignatius-of-antioch-commit-and-who-laid-the-charges/comment-page-1/#comment-44243 Phil H. Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:40:06 +0000 http://www.philipharland.com/Blog/2007/09/13/what-crime-did-ignatius-of-antioch-commit-and-who-laid-the-charges/#comment-44243 Hello Phil S. On your first point, Eusebius is quite selective (thankfully for the original readers and unfortunately for the historian) and I wouldn't expect Eusebius to refer to every such thing that would support his favourite points. You are right that this is merely a theory, but a theory that may account for Ignatius's silence on the whole issue and the degree to which the Antioch issue seems a sore point for him. He wants to leave it behind . . . permanently. Thanks for playing devil's advocate. Phil H. Hello Phil S.

On your first point, Eusebius is quite selective (thankfully for the original readers and unfortunately for the historian) and I wouldn’t expect Eusebius to refer to every such thing that would support his favourite points.

You are right that this is merely a theory, but a theory that may account for Ignatius’s silence on the whole issue and the degree to which the Antioch issue seems a sore point for him. He wants to leave it behind . . . permanently.

Thanks for playing devil’s advocate.

Phil H.

]]> By: Phil Snider http://www.philipharland.com/Blog/2007/09/13/what-crime-did-ignatius-of-antioch-commit-and-who-laid-the-charges/comment-page-1/#comment-44198 Phil Snider Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:16:56 +0000 http://www.philipharland.com/Blog/2007/09/13/what-crime-did-ignatius-of-antioch-commit-and-who-laid-the-charges/#comment-44198 Interesting theory and, certainly, quite plausible as far as it goes. As you note, the scenario you lay out for Ignatius did happen and could very well have happened. Yet, the abscence of documentary proof worries me for two reason. First, if Ignatius was betrayed, wouldn't we expect that Eusebius (if not Ignatius himself) would have reported this, if only to score point on the heretics and schismatics? Yes, that is an argument from silence, but it has some force. Second, the prescence of a schism does not necessarily lead to this kind of betrayal. It can and it did, but the connection isn't a necessary one. Remember that there were pagans who were perfectly willing to go after Christians because of their 'blasphemy'. That also would constitute a perfectly acceptable theory for Ignatius' arrest. Just playing devil's advocate. Peace, Phil Interesting theory and, certainly, quite plausible as far as it goes. As you note, the scenario you lay out for Ignatius did happen and could very well have happened. Yet, the abscence of documentary proof worries me for two reason.

First, if Ignatius was betrayed, wouldn’t we expect that Eusebius (if not Ignatius himself) would have reported this, if only to score point on the heretics and schismatics? Yes, that is an argument from silence, but it has some force.

Second, the prescence of a schism does not necessarily lead to this kind of betrayal. It can and it did, but the connection isn’t a necessary one. Remember that there were pagans who were perfectly willing to go after Christians because of their ‘blasphemy’. That also would constitute a perfectly acceptable theory for Ignatius’ arrest.

Just playing devil’s advocate.

Peace,
Phil

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